Editor of nordics.info Nicola Witcombe looks into why the Nordic countries are seen – and see themselves – as maritime nations, and how this has connected them with the rest of the world. To help her, she speaks to global historian Annette Skovsted Hansen from Aarhus University and legal expert Ellen Eftestöl from the University of Helsinki. This is the first of two podcast on The Maritime Nordics.
For further reading & links, go to nordics.info.
Editor of nordics.info Nicola Witcombe looks into why the Nordic countries are seen – and see themselves – as maritime nations, and how this has connected them with the rest of the world. To help her, she speaks to global historian Annette Skovsted Hansen from Aarhus University and legal expert Ellen Eftestöl from the University of Helsinki. This is the first of two podcast on The Maritime Nordics.
For further reading & links, go to nordics.info.
24:20
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
denmark, maritime, nordic, nordic countries, nation, nordics, eu, ghana, danish, important, japan, world, vikings, rules, shipping, families, countries, seafarers, ocean, norway
Nicola Witcombe 00:10
Welcome to the latest podcast from Knowledge on the Nordics, which is the first of two podcasts on the maritime Nordics with me Nicola Witcombe, Editor of Nordics info, a research dissemination website at Aarhus University. In this first podcast, we'll be looking at why the Nordic countries see themselves as maritime nations, and exploring some of the issues behind what it means to be a maritime nation, comparing with a couple of other countries. I have two guests to help me with this. My first guest is Annette Skovsted Hanson, who is an associate professor in global history here at Aarhus University's School for culture and society. Annette speaks many languages and has lived in Israel, Japan, the US and Denmark, where she is from originally.
It's often said that Denmark is a maritime nation. And I sometimes wonder what does that mean exactly? Isn't every country that isn't landlocked in some way, a maritime nation? But could you tell us what it means then? In your view?
Annette Skovsted Hansen 01:16
Yes, my PhD was about nation building in the 1800s. And I think it has a lot to do with sort of the definitions of a country's narrative. The idea is to isolate it or or to explain it as if it's something unique. And for Denmark, the sort of the challenge of the competition has rather been between two narratives, either the, the agricultural nation, or the maritime nation. I mean, in Denmark, you'll never more than 100 kilometers from from the coast. So what you see is that a lot of villages on the coast, but also a little inland, you will have people in the same village, some families will be seafarers, and other families will be involved in agriculture. But, of course, we've been into marriages and intermingling. But there's also very much sort of these two distinct stories that are then used in different contexts. And I think the maritime nation of Denmark has to do with going back to the Vikings. So it's kind of again, the national narrative of the Vikings, the skills they had, that they could build ships that could actually travel across the Atlantic, also in terms of actually sailing or having a boat or things like that. But it also has to do with that whole segment of the population have been used to that the fathers of the families were gone brothers for two years at a time, typically, many of them actually went on boats, or ships out of Hamburg, for example, or Bremen. So, they were trained on Rømø, or other islands, but then they were actually working out of German port cities. And they returned after two years, and with the family, maybe six months or something like that, and then they were gone again. So of course that also affects the family structure and family life, the role of the women in these families. So there's a lot of things where I think it has affected also many Danish families, but not all, because then there's the other, the other Denmark, which is the agricultural nation where of course, the families all work on the same farm, and they're always all there. What it also means to me, is the connections that these people have made to the rest of the world, not necessarily as Danish or as the Danish ships, but rather that these individuals have interacted with people from all over, and in all these places throughout the world.
Nicola Witcombe 03:50
Presumably the same could be said of one or more or all of the Nordic nations. Could you comment on on that?
Annette Skovsted Hansen 03:58
Yes, I think that is exactly what I meant by in the 1800s. It was so important for Denmark, Sweden and Norway to create these more or less disconnected stories. I mean, whether it was competition of who were the true Vikings, or whether it's, it's Yeah, who is more a maritime nation. But I think for the Nordic countries, certainly it has been a way to connect to the world. I mean, they are comparatively small countries, but through their seafarers through their captains through their shipping companies. They have made links to the rest of the world and Mærsk as the largest shipping company in the world, obviously has also profited.
Nicola Witcombe 04:42
Yeah, so I guess it also explains, you know, that even though you've got this sort of link to a particular nation, which shows the sort of effects of globalisation in some ways.
Annette Skovsted Hansen 04:54
And I think that is actually really crucial also in terms of, it's so not national. I mean, the shipping line stories have been told as national stories. But it's very hard to keep them isolated. Because whether it's the seafarers on the ships, or whether it's the trading goods or the lines, what ports they actually what port calls they have. They're seldomly tied to one particular nation.
Nicola Witcombe 05:23
So that was a useful perspective from Denmark and a global historian. Let's now go to Helsinki and hear from Ellen F. Eftestöl, who is a professor of civil and commercial law at Helsinki University, and also at the Scandinavian Institute of Maritime Law at the University of Oslo. She's a truly Nordic citizen, originally from Norway. She has lived in Denmark and most of her adult life in Finland.
Do you see Finland as a maritime nation? And, you know, what does it mean to be a maritime nation? Aren’t all Nordic countries maritime nations?
Ellen Eftestöl 06:02
That's, I think that's a good question. I think it's absolutely relevant. And do not doubt about the fact that Denmark and Norway probably identify themselves more as shipping nations. If you emphasize shipping, then Finland and and Sweden. If you look at maritime related industries, it's about shipbuilding, it's about carriage of passengers and freight. But it's also fishing, for example, which all of them have. But at least you could say that all of them are maritime-based countries. So for example, Finland would not function without maritime carriage, because it's almost on an island. And this applies to Iceland, even more. So the maritime industry in its diversity is applicable or relevant to all the Nordic countries, we are countries by the sea, we have long traditions with the Vikings, which I think that everyone relates to. So I think that this is relevant for all Nordic countries. But then if you go into how we should govern and what interests should be emphasized, I think there are differences within the Nordic countries, of course.
Nicola Witcombe 07:42
So it seems that individually, the Nordic countries may see themselves as maritime nations for a variety of reasons. But they can also be seen as a maritime region. I wondered whether legal structures on a national, EU, Nordic, or international level effect this. So I asked Ellen to contextualize the legal position for me.
Some Nordic countries and members of of the European Union, some are not. But we've got these different levels, you know, we've got the national level, the European level, the international level, where does the Nordic level fit into that?
Ellen Eftestöl 08:25
In an international context, we talk about the Nordic legal family, and that means that we have very similar systems. Of course, we have detail that differs. But we're approaching law in the same way. And particularly in the area of civil law, we can talk about Nordic and Nordic legal system in a way, which is there something in between the common law and the civil law countries.
When we make new laws, we try to collaborate. But the collaboration is really not very formal. It's so that the ministers meet and try to prepare the laws together. And, then, we will have a text with the same wording that is then taken back to the national parliaments. And there they are decided, and the collaboration is only kind of a good will that we would like to develop our legal rules in this area in the same direction. And you can also see it in the Supreme Court decisions. If they have a case, with this Nordic background, they can easily say that, well, this solution sounds good. And I would also like to point out that the Norwegian Supreme Court did this and the Danish Supreme Court did that And of course, they are not bound formally by this. But it is an an important argument, because one of the one of the ideas behind the legislation that they are interpreting is then to harmonize the legal system. So we will try to have the same rules. But of course, there are differences in details. But at large, this is how the Nordic system works.
And then, of course, if you go one level up to the regional, the European level, there, some Nordic countries or member states like Finland, Sweden and Denmark, and then Iceland and Norway only have an EEA agreement, which means that we are part of the inner market, and have accepted that the rules there apply to us as well, bbut we are not fully members. So, it means that we're not part of the legislative process within the EU, we just have to accept what we get from the EU, but on the other hand, we then have certain exemptions that are important to us. And for Norway, that is, for example, that agriculture is outside, petroleum area is outside, fishery is outside. So, for these important areas, then we just decide themselves. And I think that fishery was also very important for Iceland. The Nordic countries will collaborate even when implementing rules from the EU.
Nicola Witcombe 11:42
So, what's interesting you use the word harmonize? Is it written anywhere? You say that the process of, you know, the ministers discussing and so on and so forth…Is it because is it kind of like an unwritten rule that they do that? Or is it actually set out in some sort of treaty or agreement that they have to do that?
Ellen Eftestöl 12:09
Do you mean, on the Nordic level, or?
Nicola Witcombe 12:11
On the Nordic level, on the Nordic level...
Ellen Eftestöl 12:14
There is an agreement, a loose agreement, that they should do it in the area of contract law, at least the Nordics, but it's not related to the EU, it's related to the general obligation of collaborating, but it's not very binding, it is more about the goodwill.
Nicola Witcombe 12:38
I just think it's I just think it's fascinating that, you know, probably most of the Nordic population would be content with harmonizing when it's on a Nordic level. But if you take it on to an EU level, then they're they feel as though that their sovereignty is being taken away. It's it's would that would that be a fair assessment? Do you think or maybe that's just my my viewpoint of what you're saying?
Ellen Eftestöl 13:06
Yeah. I don't really know about how this is accepted. But, I think you're right, that there is the nobody, nobody questions, the Nordic collaboration, because I think it's also because it is a collaboration, it's not something that you have to do we do it because we would like to do it. And we agree on the content of the rules. And if we cannot agree, we don't comply, is based on… it's not obligatory, I think that's a different
Nicola Witcombe 13:41
That makes it more, you know, motivating to do it in a way,
Ellen Eftestöl 13:46
I would say that, I mean, within the EU, the main idea between it in the EU is to harmonize the rules, the inner market. And so this is the how law is used as a policy instrument in a way. And in the within the Nordics. We have had this for many centuries, you know, 100 years back, that we trade with each others. And we would like to keep the rules as similar as possible to make it easier on the parties that move around within the Nordic countries. And but this has been done on on with no obligations, but the AI the EU is based on the same idea.
Nicola Witcombe 14:31
It is, yes.
Ellen Eftestöl 14:32
It's much, much closer. And and of course, there are more obligations if the EU decides and you have to follow mostly.
Nicola Witcombe 14:45
So perhaps even though nations individually like to see themselves as maritime nations, this overlooks the fact that the Nordic countries are intrinsically linked through history and trade and so on. And of course, that also applies to the European and international level. That's also why it seems like a misnomer to talk about maritime nations. Because the maritime industry and links to the sea generally is what intimately connects countries to one another.
Both Annette and Ellen mentioned how the Nordic nations identify with the seafaring Vikings as part of their maritime history or identity. Another perhaps often overlooked aspect of the Nordics as maritime nations is its colonialism. Garner was a Danish colonial outpost during the slave trade. And since its independence in 1957, it has had an ongoing special relationship with Denmark through aid and trade. Annette leads a transdisciplinary research group called PEPP II investigating Port Effectiveness and Public Private Cooperation for a competitive port in Ghana.
Could you briefly outline the historical links between Denmark and Ghana for us?
16:09
There's a longer history back to 1658, at least, where Denmark captured a Swedish-built castle on the coast of what was then not called Ghana, but off the Gold Coast. So there's the sort of slave trade aspect of the relationship, which I think actually is more important to the Danes, in terms of also when the Queen was visiting with a lot of people. In November of 2017, one of the things that the Danish foreign minister was stressing was apologies for the slave trade. And the reaction from the foreign minister of Ghana was well, of course, we shouldn't forget history. But let's talk about some decent trade agreements and that has been the challenge.
Nicola Witcombe 16:59
So really from the off, they've been very clear that they want trade rather than aid?
Annette Skovsted Hansen
Yes
Nicola Witcombe 17:05
Okay.
Annette Skovsted Hansen
And they didn't succeed in that, achieving that till actually just 2020 in terms of Denmark, because until then, Denmark was mainly also there with the DANIDA.
Nicola Witcombe 17:18
…and DANIDA is - would one call it the International Development Agency department or agency?
Annette Skovsted Hansen 17:28
Danish International Development Agency. Through the missionaries through the colonial activities. And not least through the DANIDA, I think there is certainly these personal ties to Ghana, there's a very, very big Ghana friendship community here in both and organs. But in Denmark in general, there's been a lot of aid projects of various kinds, and NGOs, also still in Ghana.
Nicola Witcombe 17:56
So we sort of talked about Denmark and the Nordic nations, if we take the sort of maritime nation lens could the same be said of, of Ghana?
Annette Skovsted Hansen 18:08
Historically, I mean, Ghana was absolutely not are the people living in what today is gone, I had no interest in the ocean, they were oriented towards the north, towards the Hara. And all trade was through further north. So in that sense, it's absolutely not a maritime nation. There are lots of fishermen and today or since the 1950s 60s, a lot of Ghanians have been trained as seafarers. So they actually very famous for very good seafarers schools, and the regional Maritime University for all of where English speaking so Anglophone, West Africa is located in no go up but very close to Tim and Ghana. Also the Black Star Shipping line which existed from 1957, a Ghanian national shipping line from 1957 to 1997.
Nicola Witcombe 18:59
So the maritime aspect of the Nordic nations is both a national and regional narrative, but it's also inextricably linked with its relationship with other countries around the world. This was recently underlined by the introductory speech of the current Japanese ambassador to Denmark, at a research event held here at Aarhus University and organized by Annette, and the Japan Alumni and Researcher Assembly and the Japanese Society for the Promotion of science (Stockholm Office).
Japanese Ambassador 19:30
Both Japan and Denmark are the maritime nations and our exchanges were initially starting by our ancestors who crossed the oceans. Back in 1846. 1867, The treaty for friendship, commerce and navigation was concluded and for more than 150 years Denmark and Japan have deepened friendship relations through oceans as we are the trading partners and most recently, Japan EU Economic Partnership Agreement was effectuated in 2019. And of course nowadays when we travel between Denmark and Japan, we more often use airplane. However, when it comes to the transportation of natural resources or foods, cars, offshore wind, generators, parts and so on so forth, we still heavily rely on the maritime transportation. Maritime trade is crucial for Denmark and Japan. That is why both countries firmly believe that freedom of navigation and rule of law in ocean is very much important. We closely collaborate in making and executing international laws regarding oceans, such as the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, the rules of International Maritime Organization, and so on and so forth. And Japan does appreciate the latest Denmark's as well as the EU's very positive approach to the free and open Indo Pacific, which ensures such important principles for our ocean, from Pacific by Indian Ocean to Middle East to Africa. Most recently, when foreign minister yet Kofoed, met Foreign Minister higher sea Yoshimasa in Tokyo, November last year, they reaffirmed the importance of such cooperation.
Nicola Witcombe 21:55
So to sum up, then the maritime aspects of trade, travel and identity and lots of other things are really important to the Nordic countries. But this does not necessarily seem to mean that they're very different from other nations around the world. If anything, it suggests that this is what links them to other countries.
I'll give the last word to Ellen and Annette:
Ellen Eftestöl 22:22
So who governs what and when? What tools? This is what makes it so interesting.
Annette Skovsted Hansen 22:30
Of course, it can be told as a national history, it makes more sense as a global history to me, because whether it's the Danish history or the Swedish or the Finnish or the Norwegian or whether it's the American or the British or the Ghanaian or the Japanese, I mean, there are so many interconnections. I don't see that these narratives can be told without the disruptions of the others.
Nicola Witcombe 22:58
You've been listening to the Nordics as Maritime Nations with me, Nicola Witcombe, editor of Nordics info, and my two guests Annette Skovsted Hansen and Ellen Eftestöl. You can find out about their research and all the projects that they're involved with if you go to our website, Nordics info. The podcast was recorded in April and May 2022 at Aarhus university in Denmark and over zoom. It is part of the Knowledge on the Nordic series, An Evolving World: Conversations on Norden, and it's the first of two podcasts, the second one being the Nordics, Shipping and the Climate. Go to our website, Nordics info to check out all the other podcasts in the series, including those on Nordic history, the Nordic model television and geopolitics and many more.