Listen to a discussion on the Nordic equality model, whether its reputation holds up to scrutiny, and differences between the Nordic countries (particularly Norway and Sweden) when it comes to gender issues.
In this episode, students Emma Healey from the University of Helsinki and Victoria Austveg from the University of Oslo speak to Cathrine Holst, Professor in Philosophy of Science and Democracy at the University of Oslo. This podcast was made possible by funding from the A.P. Moller Foundation.
Go to The New Nordic Lexicon for further reading on this and many more subjects!
Sound credits: Summer by tictac9 from freesound.org.
Listen to a discussion on the Nordic equality model, whether its reputation holds up to scrutiny, and differences between the Nordic countries (particularly Norway and Sweden) when it comes to gender issues.
In this episode, students Emma Healey from the University of Helsinki and Victoria Austveg from the University of Oslo speak to Cathrine Holst, Professor in Philosophy of Science and Democracy at the University of Oslo. This podcast was made possible by funding from the A.P. Moller Foundation.
Go to The New Nordic Lexicon for further reading on this and many more subjects!
Sound credits: Summer by tictac9 from freesound.org.
Welcome to this podcast for The New Nordic Lexicon. Today we are Oslo University in Norway with students and researchers from the universities of our hosts, Helsinki and Oslo. The subject of the next couple of podcast episodes will be gender. This podcast specifically is about perspectives on the male and female gender paradigms in the Nordic countries, particularly Norway as a case study. We will be looking at gender influences from outside and how the Nordics influence are seen by the surrounding world.
Nicola Witcombe:The New Nordic Lexicon is a collection of articles, podcasts and films based on research about the Nordic region and the world. The New Nordic Lexicon brings young people together with researchers in a dialogue on Nordic society, history and culture.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:My name is Victoria and I'm a master's student in history at the University of Oslo. I'm writing my thesis about equal pay and the policy surrounding equal pay in Norway and Sweden from 1950s to the 2000s.
Emma Healey:And my name is Emma and I am a European Nordic studies student at the University of Helsinki. I have done little studies on Nordic culture and society and a little bit of Nordic labor movements. And today, I'm here to find out more.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:Cathrine, maybe you would like to introduce yourself?
Cathrine Holst:Yes, we're happy to um, first of all, I'm happy to be here. So I'm a professor at the Department of Philosophy here at University of Oslo, but I was previously Professor of Sociology. And I'm also connected to the Institute for Social Research, where I do gender quality research.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:And Nicola, perhaps you could tell us why we're here.
Nicola Witcombe:Hello, my name is Nicola Witcombe. And I'm the project manager for The New Nordic Lexicon. And I conducted most of our consultation when we asked young people from our partner universities across the Nordics, what was important to them. And surprisingly, we found out that many young people and researchers were interested in different issues to do with gender. I particularly remember one student in Denmark, saying that she felt surprised when she got to adulthood, that the world and Denmark wasn't as equal as she had been led to believe growing up. So that's just a little example from my consultation and why we're here today.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:Cathrine, you have written a book called Hva er feminisme? So in English, this means what is feminism? And it's been published in two editions, last one in 2017. And here, you talk about feminism coming in waves historically, what are the differences between the first and the second waves and when did these waves occur?
Cathrine Holst:The first wave, it's mostly around the 18th and 19th century, before the, you know, the French and American Revolution, so it's this part of the history. And it's, you know, mainly associated with women's struggles for civil and political rights, you know, prominently the right to vote, but also women's right to work, to unionize, to have decent payment. So this is basically very broadly and roughly the first wave and then it's the second way was during the 1960-9070s. Women entered higher education, new problems then became on the agenda very much related to how women could combine education, work, political engagement, broadly participation in public institutions with family life, but also other new questions arose, like questions of sexual reproductive freedoms. But I also think, you know, more radical questions. So how can we organize society politics in ways that treat everyone irrespective of gender and sexuality on on equal terms, so very, more radical questions also to institutions. And then I think also, first wave, very much connected to sort of liberalism and socialism if we talk about it in terms of ideology. While during the second wave, it was just flourishing many new directions also within feminism, for instance, radical feminism, and the idea that society is you know, a patriarchy. Men are in power and have power over women. And this really is a central organizing principle in society. So yeah, these are some of the differences. And then of course feminism have moved on after after that as well. But these are very defining, you know, movements in the history of feminism.
Emma Healey:Within this book, you also mentioned this idea of a third way in more contemporary feminism nowadays, which includes a criticism of the Western of Western feminism. Can you talk a bit more about this?
Cathrine Holst:Yes, I think, you know, I, we sometimes talk about the third wave, and even a fourth wave. And it's a lot of the bait, what really characterizes this type of feminism, some say that feminism have become more individualized. And while others say that this is still very much a collective project, but it has been includes now more groups. So there is has been more focused on what this has been referred to as intersectionality. That's not only about gender, but also about sexuality class, ethnicity. I mean, you mentioned post colonial criticism. So it's a mixture, and it's going in different directions. But I think maybe both of this is correct, that it has both become more of concern over how women are individually different, but also this idea about including more groups.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:And these were international movements. So it can be difficult to look at the Nordics without including that perspective. But if we were to just look at the Nordics, did the Nordic governments do anything different than the majority of other governments? Or I guess I'm, I'm trying to get at why we call it a Nordic gender equality model. And I wonder if you think this is justified?
Cathrine Holst:Well, yeah, this is, you know, this is very central questions. I do think if it's, yeah, there are a lot of differences between the Nordic countries. But if you want to say, you know, one common thing, it's certainly I think, in during the second wave, and in the aftermath of the Second wave, that the state and the government played a very active role in making legislation, policy in this interchange with the women's movement from below. And then bureaucrats, politicians and policymakers from above, so to speak, making family gender equality policies, and other policies and legislation that that have commonalities and that are quite distinct. And is often referred to I would say, as a best practice in other countries, you should be very careful about bragging about ourselves, and you know, don't see feminism and, and gender equality policy elsewhere, but it still has this distinctiveness that occurred during the 70s 80s and 90s. And up until today,
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:For a strong state? And basically-
Cathrine Holst:I think strong state basically very much. I think, you know, in many policy areas, and also in these areas, we sort of adapted this social democratic, strong state, also in this area. So this is actually quite unique to do that.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:And both you and me were from Norway. And did Norway do anything different than the other Nordic countries? Is it's our has they done anything different?
Cathrine Holst:Yeah, this is a huge, I mean, there are many different policies in this in the different countries like, say in Norway, we have these quota boards in corporate boards, you don't adapt in Sweden, in Denmark, you don't have a daddy's quota. So there are a lot of different, you know, details different in policies. I mean, we have done these comparisons between Norway and Sweden. And even if there are a lot of similarities, I do think in terms of the underlying or the ideology, and approach. I think many scholars have pointed to how there is more of a conflict perspective in the Swedish feminism gender equality policies, and this is up until today, I think this is more so the influence from certain variant or radical feminist feminism has been stronger. While in Norway, it is more talking about we cannot look at gender as a no zero sum game. We should cooperate. It's also in man's interest to have gender equality. It's not like it's not like both are present in both countries, but I think it is a question of accentuation and what is consider the main approach I think also in Norway, I think maybe more so than in the other Nordic countries. I think we have emphasized strongly how gender equality is good for the economy. So that is for good and for bad, because this has been a very strong way of framing it in Norway.
Nicola Witcombe:Yeah, so you briefly mentioned intersectionality feminism earlier before. And I suppose what I wanted to ask was your views on how the changing definition of gender and that is, so to say, the more inclusive spectrum, which includes transgender non binary people? Do you think this is having an effect on gender policies within Norway or the Nordics? Or are there other arguments that are coming into play considering these these new changing definitions?
Cathrine Holst:Yes, I mean, it comes in on a lot of levels and in many questions, so one thing you know, at the level of legislations, all these countries have changed their legislation quite substantively to include these issues. I think it has changed the debates on feminism, you mentioned that briefly, you cannot, you know, talk about feminism long, longer, just in terms of women's emancipation, you do need to include these other categories and to take this critique against the binary gender idea into account. I think when we talk about the social movements, we cannot talk about the women's, you know, just talking about the movement of feminism, just in terms of women's movement anymore. We include these other movements, for instance, in in relating to sexuality, politics and other movements. And I mean, I've been studying gender equality policymaking where we talk about what are the relevant stakeholders when we do these policies, of course, this is also no longer just these are important enough, the traditional women's movement, but also a new set of movements and organizations is now considered as important and legitimate stakeholders. They have to be part of the arenas, the committee's, you know, the legislation when we talk about these things.
Nicola Witcombe:Thank you. You have also co co authored a chapter in a book about gender equality and nation branding in the Nordic Region, which was called Silence of the Border: Norwegian gender equality policies and national branding. Can you tell us a bit more about where you wrote that chapter?
Cathrine Holst:Yes, it was me and my co author, ___. We were looking at how Norwegian gender equality policy was talked about, and branded, so to speak, in Norwegian foreign policy. And because this, I mean, gender equality policy, and the fact that we talk this gender equality index, this is something that the government is immensely proud of. So we would see, you know, how are we described? How is our model described? And, you know, I still find our findings a little bit surprising, because they emphasized a lot about importance, you know, women going into education going into work, the importance of female entrepreneurs, and so on. And I mean, these are important issues. But actually, this is not really how you would describe the distinctiveness of, of the Nordic code and Norwegian gender equality model model. So really no, almost no mentioning of the, of the family policy, the work life balance regime, the progressive legislation. So this is was very, this was really just not part of the story. And the quota regime also not really included in it. So all the things that I would probably, you know, would think would be important when you talked about this model was not really part of it. And I think, you know, there are probably different explanations for this, but it is a little bit unfortunate, because this is actually what has been central in, in the model and the achievements.
Emma Healey:Yeah, I do find it fascinating to see sometimes how Nordic branding abroad especially can focus in on certain Nordic characteristics and leave out so much of the story.
Cathrine Holst:Yeah. So I wonder, you know, is it because have we been bad at communicating to our policymakers, what is actually what we're actually doing? Or is it rather maybe some conceptions about what other countries can do and can handle but isn't that necessarily so? And you know, do other countries necessarily have to focus on our first wave demands first, so we cannot now work. They cannot also work on family policies or have quotas. I think this is a misunderstanding. And but yeah, it makes you think.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:It's also weird because Sweden does the opposite. They promote themselves as really really gender equality society and policies.
Cathrine Holst:Nice they do! So I mean, this is the you know, the feminists, I don't know if we still call it feminist foreign policy in in Sweden, but they are really branded themselves as something, as you say, much more, much more progressive, progressive and avant garde. And it has maybe that's very interesting difference. And it has some maybe something to do also with this difference between Norwegian and Swedish feminist ideology that's feminism is that in Sweden, it's more avant garde more radical and more conflict oriented. In also in, you know, in a little bit bold way.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:I was a visiting Riksdagen in the parliament in Sweden, and they haven't an own room that you have to pass with the women's room, where they have like, what's it called Paper figures have important women and like, information thing, and you would never see that at Staudinger. There's like, a room that everybody has to pass. This is our important women throughout history. So it's really yeah.
Cathrine Holst:That is interesting, and maybe illustrative of some of this. I agree.
Nicola Witcombe:So when you say sort of more prepared for conflict in Sweden, do you mean that they're sort of more prepared to sort of stand up and be bold as it were? Or? I don't quite understand how it would be different from Norway.
Cathrine Holst:I mean, in several different respects. So I mean, in the foreign policy, it's obviously, you know, strategic choice of, you know, being outspokenly, feminist, you know, in the plot, but some would consider that I think, you know, in some Norwegian diplomatic circle, you would just consider it undiplomatic and not something that you would do. So there is, there is certainly a different approach to this there. But also, in terms of more internal gender equality policies, for instance, also Mary Teigen. And I, the other researcher, I mentioned, we have worked now, just recently, on a paper where we compare how Norway In Norway and Sweden have approached the so called boys problem, that is the problems of boys under achievement in school. And this actually is a very good example of how in Norway, the approach is that? No, we should. The boys are also, you know, suffers from the gender norms, and to solve the boy problems will also in the long term, be in the interest of girls, and so on. I don't know if this is correct, but this is, you know, the general approach, while in the Swedish public reports that we have written it's much more a case of, okay, yeah, maybe boys have problems. But this is basically this is, it's still gender equality is still mostly a problem for girls. And this is more of a zero sum game. So we have to choose where we, where we channel our resources. So I make this a little bit of a caricature now, but there is this very clear difference in approach there. So it's more like that. Probably, the Swedes would think that we in Norway are a little bit naive, in terms of, you know, trying to harmonize this actually gender equality and feminism is requires some struggles and some boldness in terms of actually challenging other people, so or other groups, privileges or interests.
Emma Healey:At the same time, though, Nordic politics has always been successful when it comes to equality policy and a lot of world rankings, Nordic countries, a year after year kind of falling at the top of these, what would you say that the Nordic countries have done that have led to such these are
Cathrine Holst:Yeah, I do think that it is that we have an high rankings? active government that have transformed grievances, various claims from movements and from interest groups civil society into effective family gender equality policy, I think that is just very crucial. And then we can discuss also whether we have other advantages for instance, good economy, more broadly egalitarian democratic culture so that when these claims about gender equality came up, we could tap them on policies and the culture that was already there. And I mean, the Nordic countries are privileged in so many respects. So it is easier to have progressive avant garde policies here than in some other countries, obviously.
Nicola Witcombe:This is the fifth New Nordic Lexicon podcast. This episode is about does reality live up to the Nordics reputation when it comes to gender equality? We all live in different Nordic countries, from Helsinki, Aarhus, Copenhagen, Oslo, and have experience living in other countries as well. Can we all say a good or a bad example of gender equality inequality? In a place we've worked, in a community, national or regional level? Shall I go first? So I had my first child in 2005. And at that time, they had I don't know whether it still exists, but they had something called the flexible working regulations in the UK, which I believe came from some sort of EU Law. And that allowed me to formally request part time working. And I did that and I got it granted. So I was able to spend more time with my child when I went back after maternity leave. So I thought that was a good example of gender equality.
Emma Healey:For me, I cannot say I have much experience when it comes to kind of employment or anything like that, in Helsinki, I've only been there for less than a year now. But I can definitely say that I've noticed a difference in kind of male female interactions just everyday public and society compared to the UK where I lived the previous 20+ years. I mean, for example, even something as simple as being in a bar or cafe, and the attitudes that I've noticed are entirely different. And I think it's a good enough thing that I can say that I haven't noticed any obvious examples, because that means that there's less problems, if that makes sense. And so I think that really is the main difference. I have noticed since I've moved to the Nordics.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:I also have a good one. And I was thinking about athletic environment, because I've played handball, most of my or all of my upbringing and also into adulthood. And this is an environment where you're sort of applauded for having masculine abilities, even though you're a woman or a girl. And this means that I've been able to be both masculine and feminine at the same time, which for my sake has been really nice. But then I got to thinking about the boys. And I think for boys in an athletic environment, it might be the opposite. And they're expected to be even more masculine than a normal man, and even less feminine. So for them, I think we have an even longer way to go. But for us women, at least for me, it's been very nice. And also if you want to talk about non binary people and transgender people, I don't know if it's even an environment where they're included at all. So it's both good and bad, I guess. But for my sake, it's been really nice.
Cathrine Holst:Yeah, I think I have to have a nice story as well, or it's not a story, it's just a general experience. I'm also a mother of two children, and even though you know, they have their struggles and even though I know also from research all these problems with it, you know, traditional gender roles and etc. in youth culture, I would say that, compared to when I was young, there are more ways of doing gender and sexuality and they take it much more for granted in a good way and I think they seem to tolerate more difference and they are not, you know, upset or even notice the types of differences that was giving huge attention when I grew up. So that's sort of, even though there are all these two elections and problems and everything in general that is promising. But by the way, with the boys, I do think there is something there and you know, the Nordic countries have been very progressive in many areas. But when it comes to maybe both some of these intersectional perspectives, and also to bring in the problems and challenges of boys on the current gender and sexuality regimes, maybe we have not been that much in the forefront than you would expect. Really the debates about boys in schools and voices it started in during the 1990s. And in Norwegian and Swedish policymaking, it's just recently a couple of or, you know, the last decades or five or six years that we have started to looking at it. So here, there is a lack of some kind.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:We were also talking about yesterday, me and Emma talked about the athletic environment, also in sexuality, whereas girls and women, at least in handball and football in Norway, it's very much a prude of adding another sexuality than being hetero normal, heterosexual. But for boys, this is such a long way. And we just had in handle the first male player at the highest level coming out as gay. And it was a big, big, big case and in every newspaper, and it's just insane, whereas with women there, this is so normalized, it's almost expected for sure to have a different sexuality. So it's this thing is so weird that it's gone. So different waves.
Cathrine Holst:Yeah, I see. Yeah, I think so. And the, you know, yeah, my son plays football. And we are talking about trying to, you know, what, how can this be? It's so, I mean, obviously, there are many here. So why in this environment, where there have been very inclusive in other ways, like, in terms of including minorities, and so on, that is football is often put forward as quite successful in
Emma Healey:It's yeah, I could be wrong about this. But I this area. believe the very, very first male footballer has come out as gay in within the last few years. And that sport has been going on for over a century now. And it's one of the biggest sports in the world. And for us to only have one openly gay male footballer. It's ridiculous when you consider at least in the UK, the ladies teams will celebrate with their girlfriends on the side of the pitch. And so that disparity is ridiculous. And definitely, I'm not so sure about the Nordics. But definitely in the UK, there's a massive debate currently about mental health of men. Because they do not kind of get the awareness that women do. And it's the whole "be a man"-stigma that kind of comes up. And I think that's so prevalent within sport, as well as in society.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:As you battle men with children. I just said to girl, if she's crying, you would take her on your lap, and you will be comforting her and with a boy who would a lot of people would say, oh, you're a tough boy, you can handle this. But you would rarely say that to a little girl. So I think we need to, like be a bit more aware. And also, I don't know, I think we have a long way to go there. Because obviously Little Voice also get upset.
Cathrine Holst:They do and this also, I think it does affect also maybe the composition of the whole research community, but we also need more plurality of research of gender and sexuality and get more also, I mean, male students and so on interested in this, also from gender and sexuality perspectives, I think and yeah, this is there is a challenge here and I think a lot of things are under investigated, and there are real problems that we have not paid attention to that we should have.
Emma Healey:Many thanks to everybody for listening today. The next New Nordic Lexicon podcast will also be about gender, but we will look a little bit more at wage bargaining and equal pay within the Nordic countries.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:We would like to thank the REnew research group and the A.P. Møller Foundation for supporting The New Nordic Lexicon. Many thanks to everyone.
Nicola Witcombe:Bye! The students you were listening to today where Emma Heaely from Helsinki University, and Victoria Austveg from Oslo University. They were interviewing Cathrine Holst, also from the University of Oslo. My name is Nicola Witcombe, and I'm editor of nordics.info, and the project manager of The New Nordic Lexicon. The New Nordic Lexicon podcast series will mainly be in English with some episodes in Swedish, Danish and Norwegian. Subjects range from the invasion of Ukraine and security in Europe, to minority languages in Finland and Sweden. The New Nordic Lexicon is brought to you by the team behind nordics.info at Aarhus University in Denmark with students and colleagues from across the Nordics and beyond.