Listen to a discussion on policymaking, gender segregation and equal pay.
In this, the sixth podcast for the New Nordic Lexicon, where students Emma Healey from the University of Helsinki and Victoria Austveg from the University of Oslo speak to Cathrine Holst, Professor in Philosophy of Science and Democracy at Oslo University. Nicola Witcombe, who is editor of nordics.info based at Aarhus University, also joins the discussion. This podcast was made possible by funding from the A.P. Moller Foundation.
Sound credits: Summer by tictac9 from freesound.org.
Listen to a discussion on policymaking, gender segregation and equal pay.
In this, the sixth podcast for the New Nordic Lexicon, where students Emma Healey from the University of Helsinki and Victoria Austveg from the University of Oslo speak to Cathrine Holst, Professor in Philosophy of Science and Democracy at Oslo University. Nicola Witcombe, who is editor of nordics.info based at Aarhus University, also joins the discussion. This podcast was made possible by funding from the A.P. Moller Foundation.
Sound credits: Summer by tictac9 from freesound.org.
Welcome to this podcast for the New Nordic Lexicon. We are today at Oslo University in Norway with students and researchers from the universities of our hosts Helsinki and Oslo. The subjects of the last podcast as well as this one is on gender. And this podcast specifically is more about gender and the labor market in the Nordic countries, particularly Norway.
Nicola Witcombe:The New Nordic Lexicon is a collection of articles, podcasts and films based on research about the Nordic region and the world. The New Nordic Lexicon brings young people together with researchers in a dialogue on Nordic society, history and culture.
Emma Healey:My name is Emma and I am a first year Master's student at the European and Nordic Study Center in the University of Helsinki.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:My name is Victoria. I'm also a master's student at the University of Oslo. I am writing my thesis in history about equal pay policies in Norway and Sweden. Would you like to introduce yourself Cathrine?
Cathrine Holst:Yes, my name is Cathrine Holst and I'm a professor now at the Department of Philosophy. I'm also just sent in recently professor of sociology at the University of Oslo. And I'm also connected to the Center of Gender Equality at the Institute of Social Research.
Emma Healey:And Nicola, perhaps you could introduce yourself and explain why we are here today.
Nicola Witcombe:Yes, thanks. My name is Nicola Witcombe. And I'm the project manager for the New Nordic Lexicon, and the editor of nordics.info. And I conducted most of the consultation for the New Nordic Lexicon when we spoke to young people from across the Nordic countries to find out what was important to them. And of course, gender came up as a topic. But people were also interested in the Nordic model generally, and the tripartite working or corporatism, the working together of trade unions and employers. And they were also interested in the labor market generally.
Emma Healey:Thank you. So welcome, Cathrine. You are a professor here at the University of Oslo. In the last podcast episode, we talked about different types of policies such as the quotas for women on boards within Norway, please, can you tell us about some of the ways to evaluate these sorts of policies, for example, whether they are good or bad for gender equality?
Cathrine Holst:Yes, you know, there are different ways of doing that. And if we, you know, move directly to the Nordic way of doing it, one way of doing this is to evaluate through evaluation and policy advice commissions. And we have had several of those in the gender equality area in all Nordic countries, that the idea then is to, you know, go through what policies are the situation of gender equality? And then we'll look at what types of policies do we have? What have been their effects and how should we assess these effects and then these commissions have approached these things differently. But for instance, in the recent evaluation committee, the most recent evaluation committee in which gender equality policy led by the late political scientist?, on her initiative, we use the theory of justice, theory of democracy and from feminist theory, trying then to assess both the policies and the achievements of of it.
Emma Healey:Thank you. You have presented research on the influence of researchers on policymaking and you mentioned the phrase about this being a threat against democracy. Why is this?
Cathrine Holst:Yeah, so I mentioned these commissions that we have, so in both Nordic countries, we have these huge commission systems, all policy areas you know, every year we put down commissions who analyze policy issue, make recommendations, make proposals on new legislations and so on and we have that also in gender equality area. Commissions are generally very influential on what we call agenda setting and problem formulation, you know, defining what are the problems in the areas, what should we do? This is quite, you know, key questions, then they deliver their recommendations, and after that it goes to the government and to Parliament and then then actually may very often affect how the decisions are made. And what we have found this is at least in Norway, so it looks a little bit different in some of the other Nordic countries is that there isn't a steep increase actually, in the role of researchers and bureaucrats in this committee, so there are these in one way that this, you know, a good thing because, you know, we should have gender equality researchers part of the community that analyze and propose gender equality policies. But on the other hand, if you get a policy advice policy proposing system that is too, you know, undemocratic in the sense that the civil society are not particularly are not well enough represented, if there is also not enough public debate and discussions around these things, or if these commissions maybe focus on problems that don't really captures development and the controversies in civil societies. We mentioned maybe some of the problems that you mentioned here, you know, and this is really the traditional Nordic model of doing gender equality policy at this, this is our self image at least, is that we try to combine input from movements from below, with state feminism or state policy from below this was the political scientist, ?, you know, conception of how we how we did it in Nordic social democracy. So there is a danger, of course, in policymaking that this from below perspectives is if not lost, but it's that it's coming more to the morgue. And so this is a worry, that arise.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:Because of an increase in the amount of commissions, or is it an increase of researchers in the commissions?
Cathrine Holst:Yeah, it's not necessarily it's not an increase in the amount of commissions, it can be quite the opposite in some policy areas. But like in Norway there are, you know, 20 to 25 commissions every year. So it's quite an amount, but it's more the share of this commission. So these are often called hybrid commissions that typically they have consisted of politicians, bureaucrats, researchers, interest groups, civil societies, and what we found is that the share of researchers have been steeply increasing, and that also very often you find, such as ? that I was in the gender equality commission, I think we delivered a superb report. But it was inconsistent. It was typical for this development, the sense that it consisted completely of only by researchers and some bureaucrats. And maybe it's not a problem if one committees is with a special man that where we were supposed to look at the research and so on. So maybe it makes sense to have, you know, have a large share researchers. But it's a problem if this overall is the trend, I think.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:And there's also other actors than just policymakers and researchers. And we were wondering if we could talk a bit about the three party system, which Emma and I both have studied, in the point of gender segregation. And and first of all, we were wondering if you could explain what gender segregation is exactly.
Cathrine Holst:Yeah. So the gender segregated labor markets? Yes. Well, this is labor market, that is the bar divided or segregated, and very often it can be terms of a hierarchy, that, for instance, male, the men have top positions, more often than women, but very often what what one refers to when we talk about segregated labor market is also that women and men, they choose different professions, and you find them in different areas of the working life. So typically, more women become become nurses, while more men become engineers, and so on.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:Is this typical for the Nordic countries? Or is it more segregated here? Do you know that?
Cathrine Holst:And I think it was an old saying, so to speak, I mean, the phenomenon of a gender segregated labor market, I would almost say it's universal, even though there are many different variants of it in different countries. I mean, but this is a this is a very general phenomenon. And the old saying was that it was a paradox that in the Nordic countries, even if we had high levels of gender equality generally, there was still quite a gender segregated labor market and more according to some measures more segregated in Nordic than some other European countries. So this has been this is the case. So this has been framed as a paradox or a puzzle. So what recent research find is really that, that this is a little bit too to say that we have more gender segregated than in other countries is a little bit misleading. To the extent that countries where fewer women are in the labor market, and all while I do, you know, unpaid work, family work, unpaid care work. So, these in these countries where there are more traditional gender roles, they score better in terms of gender segregation, because these women are not in the labor market. So, in Norway, where we have very high female, and on the other Nordic countries have very high female employment. And when they then gender enter the labor market, they do then more often go into professions and occupations that are more typical for for women. So, we get this very segregated labor market, which still is a little bit misleading, and to have this as a prime indicator of the broader gender equality in society, because in some of the other countries where they score more poorly on this, women are not even in the labor market, and they don't get paid, and this was part of the women's movement, again, there was, of course, at the all unpaid work of women was supposed to get appreciated and paid. And, you know, behind these numbers, we have to look at this as well, yeah.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:So the way that I have understood, the Equal Pay Issue, at least here in the Nordics, is that it's just sort of stuck between the politicians, and also then the law or the labor unions, and also the employers associations. So it's a problem that's in between all of these three party parties. Yeah. Is this correct?
Cathrine Holst:Yes, so we have the wage negotiation system where the social partners negotiate on wage. So they are supposed to decide the wage structures and how it how it affects the salaries of women and men. On the other hand, you have, of course, the political goal, or more equal pay, and the politicians wanted, and they want to do something active about it, because I really think it, you know, go against, you know, important ideas of social justice, that we have this equal this pay gap between women and men, but it's really hard, as long as you have this idea, which is also very much connected, I think, to you know the Democratic ideas that the social partners, this is supporting democratic improvement, they should negotiate on the wage. And so it hurts it's simply how to make policy from the state or the government to do something about it without will really provoking, you know, the business organizations, but also the unions. I mean, the unions have also been very skeptical, very critical of the government intervening, even if they see, you know, equal pay is a good purpose. But the model has priority and the autonomy of the social partners to solve this is considered very important. So this is why it's hard to do something about that. And even if the government had tried to introduce equal pay pot, we have had this public commissions also trying to, you know, can we use legislation here in some respects, but it is very hard because the integrity of the bargaining system, it has very high priority.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:So equal pay sort of difference than from other gender equality policies.
Cathrine Holst:Yes, I do think yeah, that's correct. I do think because, as I said, you know, the central feature of Nordic gender equality policy is using an active state using it through legislation, but in the Equal Pay Issue this is simply not the viable path and it's not considered acceptable and also I think when it comes to for instance, the family policies, the women's movement and other you know, progressive movements and the unions, they have been stood side by side and pushed for policies and for changes while in this question, there is this very difficult conflicts between a powerful unions and this gender equality idea. So, there has been some alliances in between the women's movements and you know, proponents for gender equality feminists, and the unions and some of the Union female dominated unions in the public sector. So, you know, they try to push for this, but it has been very hard and in leaky ceilings with well get a public inquiry commission on gender equality policy, we tried, you know, we saw this, this is a huge problem, what can we do about it very hard. And we did propose that the three party bargaining system that they should include a new mechanism and or a new forum, where gender equality issues, including equal pay was supposed to be quite a regular institutionalized system. But this has not really been being taken up. So, yeah.
Emma Healey:And within these discussions, there also exists the term equality bargaining. But of course, the term equality can mean many can refer to many, many different aspects, one person cannot be defined solely by the agenda. And so, it's become much more commonplace to not only look at one gender, when you are analyzing experiences within today's society, but also considering how if somebody of the lower working class person of color and female will have a different experience, to maybe just a male person of color? Would you say the intersectionality comes into play when it comes to the discussions of wages?
Cathrine Holst:Yeah, well, there is maybe a gap between, on the one hand, I think, a very, you know, mature and promising legislation in terms of intersectionality on the one hand, and then if you have this bargaining system, you actually depend on the parties and organizations to take the questions related to intersectionality issues, make it part of their agenda and to prioritize it. And my impression is that there are certainly very important discussions and priorities done in some of the unions, but maybe not always in the most powerful ones, in terms of some of these intersectionality access in terms of sexuality, politics, and so on. I think maybe it's, it has not been very, very central at all in the bargaining processes so far. So yeah, so this is certainly someone that I think will become more central. There is this gap here between legislation and the bargaining system. A general notion in at least in Norway, but I
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:You wrote a book together with or edited a book together with Mari Teigen and ?, which is called European Session of Nordic Policy on Gender Wquality. And here, we have quite a different approach than a lot of international literature on Nordic policy on gender equality, because you also look at what the Nordic countries has adopted from the EU. And I wonder why you chose to have this point of view? also think maybe more broadly, in our countries is that we are foreigner, so there's not so much to learn or, you know, to achieve from the EU, so maybe in other policy areas, but not in this area. So we wanted to take a closer look at what is there anything to learn and also in particular, we thought it was really fascinating that you know, in you know during the 1990s, Sweden and Finland entered the EU, Denmark already part of it, Norway didn't enter. This is almost like an experimental situation. They've chose different paths, different things were claimed, what what would happen, and then we wanted to see what actually happened.
Emma Healey:So what would you say is the overall impact of the EU on the Nordic countries and their individual policy developments?
Cathrine Holst:So I think our main finding is that it has had really substantive effect on legislation. So expanding gender, labor, legislation to include it to be more intersectional. And to include more groups, it has an effect on the equal pay legislation in the adoption of the gender mainstreaming approach. So basically, on the legislative side, there has been huge effect. And also some would say it has improved legislations in other countries. Then, of course, there are many examples, for instance, in quota policies, family policies, where Nordic countries take a more interventionist or radical approach than the EU countries, certainly many of the EU countries certainly, but more or less has been possible within the frameworks of the EU, even though there has been also difficult adaptations that have been needed to that have been called for, for instance, where in terms of how you use quotas, because quotas cannot need to be in accordance with the Equal Treatment principle. So that has created a lot of difficulties for how we make quota policies. Yeah, so this is maybe yeah, some of the some of the main findings, I would say.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:Does Norway have to adapt to everything from the EU, given that they're outside?
Cathrine Holst:Yeah, so we have is a good question. We have this EEAS agreement. And also, I think more than 80 other agreements. But I mean, in the gender equality policy area, this EEA agreement is important. And he most of what you have here of directives, and other and other legislation Norway actually has to implement and the things that we don't have to implement, we have wanted to implement it. So I think we tried to test this, you know, is it the case maybe, I think, actually, that when Norway, majority of Norwegian said no, to be part of a member of the EU in 1994. Actually, more women than men said no. And the very important argument was the wanted was a welfare state and the family policy and one, it was the it was a worry that the EU would make it harder to have to sustain the gender equality from the welfare state. So what if this was correct, you can imagine, then that know that Norway maybe would use their freedom autonomy outside the EU to make to to make more radical policies. While you could see maybe some change potations in Sweden and Finland, so this is not really anything that we find. So I mean, it's still, yeah, so Norway, and compared to, for instance, Denmark, there are more similarities, I think, between Norway and Sweden stills in terms of their policies. And it's very hard to find this pattern that it has been Norway in particular, that has been innovative and done something different. And basically, this is of course, you know, the countries are still as long as you subscribe to the the directives, the different EU countries can also have different gender equality policy. So you see a lot of variation on that also in other EU countries.
Nicola Witcombe:This is the sixth episode of the New Nordic Lexicon podcast about what are the challenges to gender equality policymaking in the Nordics? So we all live in different Nordic countries, and have experienced living in other countries too. In the last podcast, we all thought of a positive example in terms of gender equality or inequality in a place we've worked, or our local community or even at the national regional level, perhaps now we could think of a negative example that we've come across.
Cathrine Holst:One example or it's I don't know if it qualifies as an example. But I think we haven't touched upon all this the the MeToo movement, and maybe you could expect that the MeToo movement wouldn't strike very hard into the North. countries because we are top all these indexes. And you know, we have this also the self conception that everything is fine. And so maybe the, this kind of it shouldn't maybe be surprising, but it is the way that actually the MeToo movement have had real strong effects also in Nordic countries, and now just recently also in Norway in the Norwegian defense, where it turns out that it's just awful. It's just awful. It's a horrible situation, the sexualized masculine culture, they're making it very hard for women to join the the armed forces. And so what is revealed there, it was just, it's very, it's very serious, and it's sort of it raises some some new questions of how really deep our gender equality, sexuality, equality, culture, really how deep it sticks, when you can have these, you know, important public institutions, where it was really quite oppressive and traditional. So this, so this I mean is one one example.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:Yeah, I was thinking about that my experience from work and working out, or besides the studies, and I got to thinking that I usually have been working in female dominated areas. So I've been in healthcare, and worked with children. Whereas I haven't noticed very much bad examples. But I've also been working with younger students or students at undergraduate level. And there, I've noticed that I get interrupted, much easier than my male colleagues. And sometimes, I feel like I have to be more authoritarian, and strict just to get the same respect as male colleagues, which can be quite annoying.
Nicola Witcombe:Interesting example. I guess my example is, so friends and family in the UK, you know, assume that we have reached full gender equality in Denmark, sometimes where I live now. But I think there was a report done a couple of years ago in Denmark about how few people call themselves feminists in Denmark. And I think Denmark differentiates itself a bit from Sweden and Norway, in that they're very proud of being unpolitically correct. And there's quite a lot of jokes, based on stereotypes, you know, that particularly Swedish, the Swedish population are very politically correct. And Danes tend to enjoy that difference, you know, from their neighboring country. So, I guess I would class that as a bad example, because I think it's fine to be a feminist. And I think it's good to assume that everyone is a feminist, rather than distance yourself from those sorts of terms. Yeah.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:Also the MeToo, movement didn't come quite late.
Nicola Witcombe:Yeah, it's kind of weird how it can act in parallel. So I think the MeToo movement started in Denmark a couple of years ago, when a TV presenter was presenting some award and she mentioned that she was asked to do a sexual favor when she was like, very, very young, because-
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:I remember that, there was like huge headlines in Norway saying finally MeToo came to Denmark.
Nicola Witcombe:There has been confessional stuff since then. And it's played out a bit politically as well, because the leader of one of the political parties was also found, well, numerous sort of issues like that. So I've always wondered about the MeToo movement in Denmark and Scandinavia.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:Because in Sweden, they responded quite quick. With consensual law. Yeah. And Norway is probably going to adapt that now. So it's quite different. Whereas in Sweden, they blew up, MeToo, and then the government went, we need to respond. We need to give something back. Whereas in Denmark, it's quite quiet and then somebody has to, like, say something at television two years after the rest of the world or three years. Yeah.
Cathrine Holst:This is reminder also this the very often when we talk about Nordic gender equality model, it's not that often Denmark that ,you know, is our prime example. Yeah, so this is maybe a little bit illustrative of that. And I think you know, it is this about people not calling themselves feminists, I think the previous leader of the Norwegian, right wing conservative party, the Progress Party, you know, to the, to the right of the Conservative Party. So CBN, since she has always she she refers to herself as a feminist. And I cannot, you know, judge whether she properly should call herself that or not, but that this is so, so much part of the common political culture that you do that even in Norway, I think it's Sweden is even even more probably, yeah.
Emma Healey:Thank you, Cathrine, for joining us today. And many thanks to everybody else for listening. We would also like to thank the research group, which nordics.info is a part of reimagining Norden in an Evolving World (ReNEW) and we would also like to thank the A.P. Møller Foundation for supporting the New Nordic Lexicon. Thank you, goodbye.
Victoria Heleen Ciobanu Austveg:Bye!.
Nicola Witcombe:The students you were listening to today were Emma Healey from Helsinki University, and Victoria Austveg from Oslo University. They were interviewing Cathrine Holst, also from the University of Oslo. My name is Nicola Witcombe, and I'm editor of nordics.info, and the project manager of the New Nordic Lexicon. The New Nordic Lexicon podcast series will mainly be in English with some episodes in Swedish, Danish and Norwegian subjects range from the invasion of Ukraine and security in Europe, to minority languages in Finland and Sweden. The New Nordic Lexicon is brought to you by the team behind nordics.info at Aarhus University in Denmark, with students and colleagues from across the Nordics and beyond.